*Idpy meeting 27 January 2025*
Attendees: Johan L, Shayna, Ivan, Mikael, Matthew, Enrique, Hannah
0 - Agenda bash
1 - Project review
a. General -
- Documentation pain points run-through / mock saml workflow / mock oidc
workflow
- Matthew has a github repo that mocks up a SAML authentication flow
using pytest. Pysaml is needed for a client to write more
than one identity
provider, and a service provider to test those identity providers -
https://github.com/xenophonf/mock-saml-flow
- Has a configuration for IdP and SP from his Satosa
configuration.
- There is some documentation for the configuration, but one
challenge is the configuration is entirely a mapping. There's
no typing
hints, things aren't discoverable in his development environment.
- Doesn't want to get into Flask, just wants to concentrate on
using what paysaml2 calls a Server and a Client. However, there is no
documentation on the classes and methods to use.
- No API documentation
- the simple examples included in code base just tell you how to
run it; not how to use the code
- one option is to go to the example code and try to figure out
how to develop an SP or IdP, but reading the source code is
really hard.
- what is repoze?
- it's not clear where to start. First guess is to start in idp_
uwsgi.py, skimming for things like url routes (where do
authentication requests come in/go out?). Only able to
find a SSO class.
How is this invoked?
- Conclusion: it takes too long to figure out how to find the
basics of what you need to know.
- Another option - test suite. Not successful here either.
- Next option - reading through Satosa code. Found Server class.
There are no type annotations, no document string for the
method to create.
There is some document strings for the other functions, some
params, some
information, but not enough to know what to use when. Found the
create_authn_response() method but there is no information on
what should
be provided for a good saml response or what structure it
should follow -
the only way to get this information is trial and error.
- idpy-oidc documentation looked more promising
- Encouraged by newer style for the documentation page.
- Wanted to write a small RP - looked at client documentation
- There is a workflow, describing the process and a high level
overview of how oidc RPs work. Very helpful.
- API documentation is lacking. No method signatures. For
example, is issuer_id the only argument the begin() method
takes? But the
Tier1 API design is good.
- No examples on how to instantiate the IdP
- Left reading through the source code again, trying to intuit
from example code and test code how to do it.
- When looking to write code to have a test OP (to test RP) -
Server code - the documentation only tells you how the
configuration
directives work. No API calls, no example code, no examples of
instantiation.
- SQLAlchemy ORM is an example of great documentation on how to
get going - type annotations, explaining what each parameter
is for, etc.
- For mock saml - took 2 months to write 179 lines of code
- Kushal has tried to document some examples -
https://kushaldas.in/learningsaml - unfortunately this starts from
a place beyond where Matthew's knowledge is
- Ivan is the person Matthew and Hannah will need to talk to to
get their project going. First focus on SAML backend for Service, SAML
Frontend for Idp. This won't give the complete picture but
it's a start.
- For Service:
https://github.com/IdentityPython/SATOSA/blob/master/src/satosa/backends/sa…,
especially authn_request and authn_response
- For an IDP:
https://github.com/IdentityPython/SATOSA/blob/master/src/satosa/frontends/s…,
esp handle_authn_request and _handle_authn_response
- Ivan acknowledges there is not developer documentation
- initial step to address docstrings
- Need to define public API methods and documentation - this
would 90-95% of what you can do with SAML
- The examples are old, and sometimes create confusion (for
example, the Server in pysaml2 is an IdP, the Server in
examples is a wsgi
server, the Server in Satosa is a proxy server).
- A referenced example against a SAML trace would be very
helpful
b. OIDC libraries - https://github.com/IdentityPython (idpy-oidc,
JWTConnect-Python-CryptoJWT, etc)
c. Satosa - https://github.com/IdentityPython/SATOSA
- LDAP plugin release coming
- Matthew will have a new SATOSA Docker image out new week
d. pySAML2 - https://github.com/IdentityPython/pysaml2
- release coming to address xml enc changes and introducing types around
entity categories from Frederik and Johan.
e. Any other project (pyFF, djangosaml2, pyMDOC-CBOR, etc)
- Roland's code has been moved under Sunet - mostly related to openid
federation and credential/wallet. Let's have a discussion whether some of
these need to be moved under IdPy
- SUNET/openid4v
- SUNET/satosa-idpy
- SUNET/satosa-openid4vci
- SUNET/fedservice
- SUNET/idpy-sdjwt
2 - AOB
3 - Action items
- pull out questions Matthew raised one by one and document them
- For example some classes were machine generated based on schema
changes (Matthew suspected this) - perhaps we should add docstrings to
explain how/when this was don
Attendees: Johan L, Shayna, Ivan, Mikael, Hannah, Matthew
0 - Agenda bash
1 - Project review
a. General -
- Find a new time slot for a weekly meeting - Mondays 12-13 UTC
- Find a time slot for a review of "documentation pain points"
meeting with Matthew E -we will take time from the 27 January meeting
- Ivan will send a message to the board, to discuss transitioning to
a different model (running services)
b. OIDC libraries - https://github.com/IdentityPython (idpy-oidc,
JWTConnect-Python-CryptoJWT, etc)
- Roland - discussion of PRs in stages vs one big one - Ivan will reach
out to him again. Mikael reports there is a workshop going on
about handing
over the keys to the kingdom.
- there will be a PR coming regarding audience policies
- before the open id connect frontend/library can release a new
token, and include an audience as a claim in the token, this
audience can
be setup with certain rules. There is a specification in the
RFC that the
client can request certain audiences can be included in the
token, in the
audience claim, using the resource indicator.
- How the OP will decide if they will do this or not is more
complicated. The OP will process the request and will see the
client wants
the audiences in the auth claim, so it applies a filter. But
what if it
doesn't? How does it signal that it didn't respect what the client
requested? No matter what, ultimately the OP will decide
which audiences go
into the auth claim.
- But what if the policy changes over time? The OP may be reloaded
with a new policy. The client will use a token or give one to
an RS, and we
need to take into consideration that the policy may have changed when
replying from the different endpoints where the audience can have
participation.
- What happens if we can't refresh our access token because a
policy changed? What happens if you are allowed to do more
things than were
requested? The potential change over time spans is the tricky
part, and may
cause the OP to deny a request.
- Need to introduce a hook in the right places where the audience
will be set/returned/displayed to apply the policy needed.
- Nikos has gone through the PR Roland opened - looks good and was
tested - will be merged.
c. Satosa - https://github.com/IdentityPython/SATOSA
- Ivan (speaking for both SATOSA and pysaml2) will work on the next
stages of release, incorporating different categories of PRs -
he has some
changes locally but hasn't pushed them yet
- username, ldap plugins
- Johan's request for typings
- support xml encoding version 1.1 (?)
d. pySAML2 - https://github.com/IdentityPython/pysaml2
- Making sure compatible with python 3.13 - should do this with all
code. Has been addressed for pyff (see below)
e. Any other project (pyFF, djangosaml2, pyMDOC-CBOR, etc)
- Conversations with Enrique around pyff - need discussion with spec
authors around trustinfo elements- Matthew Stewart will ask the working
group for their help to expand on the specification and
capabilities. There
are some questions about processing the list of preferred/exclusively
trusted identity providers, done through the services metadata or another
structure - a JSON payload with a list of sets of IdPs. During the
processing of the list, it is possible that what has already
been processed
is getting overwritten. It shouldn't happen that the same list should be
entered twice. How should this be handled? Should it be up to the
implementers; should we throw an error or a warning? Need to
determine how
to handle these edge cases. Should this invalidate the service
such that we
don't continue to process its metadata? Should we skip the
repeated entity,
use the last entity, etc?
- Mikael added a github action to make sure they can build pyff with
latest python release. This should probably be done for all code.
2 - AOB
- Change meeting invite and ensure Enrique and Alex are added
- Matthew is going to post his mock SAML workflow writeup to the
idpy-discuss list. He is doing a similar writeup for the idpy-oidc
libraries. It is a narrow example of the authentication flow,
mocking up an
OP and RP, simulating a request and response and processing the response.
He may be able to share some of that with us at the next meeting. It is
using pytest but not simulating things like a web browser.
Attendees: Shayna, Ivan, Mikael, Matthew, Hannah
This meeting was a 2025 kickoff. We discussed ideas, goals and plans for
the IdPy project so that we can keep momentum going and make a better
experience for deployers, developers, and end users.
- Ivan's take: Idpy provides tooling that you can put together in a
flexible manner. But only if you know what you're doing!
- Not a lot of people are using these tools that are provided because
the domain is complex, and the way they are being provided is
not optimal.
- there could be a push to move from tooling/libraries to running
services
- configuration is mostly done for you, with minimal changes
- this might also convince people to contribute back, as they
would not be spending as much time getting things set up
- this would include adding more documentation and improving the
documentation that is there
- this probably needs to be a board level discussion; Leif needs
to agree; GEANT and Christos
- then get buy-in from the users like Giuseppe, CESNET, and
stakeholders
- Nikos working on oidc parts, Mikael and Enrique are working on
pyff
- There are resourcing issues
- need a dedicated person for idpy tools to combine tools as a
service, and someone to help with UX parts
- Alex is working closely with Ivan - looking at SATOSA, pysaml2
- Matthew - are there resources we should be reaching out to ?
Ivan: there is a divide between opensource projects and financing.
- GÉANT finances many projects/tools/services, including some of
the IdPy projects
- Who is using SATOSA? Italian government and some agencies,
SUNET, GÉANT (Core AI, incubator projects), Italian
federation, CESnet
(czech) and CERN. Norwegian projects (NORDnet, CSC)
- Mikael: It will probably be easier to get testing/ quality
assurance help than pure development
- There seems to be a lack of a plan
- What are the priorities? Can we adopt some sort of project
management process? For instance, how do we get single logout
incorporated?
- The calls are supposed to help with that, but right now there is
nothing official to keep a plan in place and keep it moving forward.
- The time is the issue.
- We can use Github's project functionalities - have planning
calls, use Kanban?
- We should Increase the cadence of this meeting to weekly instead
of bi-weekly
- Need to plan for new features/capabilities, protocol changes
from the things we us : for example from OIDC /OpendID foundation
- Need to address usability - deployer, developer, end-user
- the meeting becomes a check-in - what are you working on, what's
finished, what's in your way? And also sprint planning /
customer delivery,
product backlog annual review
- We need to formalize that in meeting agenda - 10 minutes backlog
grooming (are we working on the right things at the right
time?). Then what
are you working on? What have we finished? What's blocking
progress? Can we
connect people?
- Do we need to check in with the board? Maybe give the board a
monthly report showing our progress. This will drum up
further support for
the project.
- May need to change the meeting time.
- Ivan is currently spending 2 days a month on idpy tools - he is
hoping to increase this
Steps to focus on before next meeting:
- We should invite Enrique & Alex to the meeting - also try to find a
time to meet on a weekly basis
- Ivan can send a message to the board, to discuss transitioning to a
different model (running services)
- Ivan will work on the next stages of release, incorporating different
categories of PRs.
- Shayna will look into/ learn about what we can use from the Agile
methodology to improve our meetings/project direction
- Matthew would like to see documentation be a first priority. Mikael
echoed Matthew's frustration with the current state of documentation.
Examples of good documentation that help a developer get set up quickly:
SQL Alchemy documentation (deploying an ORM); another is the Typer python
package for building CLI. We should initially focus on:
- pysaml2 documentation - HOW to use classes, functions, constants?
- deployment guide for SATOSA
Hey all,
I'm trying to pick some times for a meeting to discuss the current state
of the Identity Python documentation.
https://doodle.com/meeting/participate/id/aQjjKW5b
Best wishes,
Matthew
--
"The reason that ed is the standard editor is to remind you that
things could be worse, and once were." -- Tim Lavoie in comp.lang.lisp
